chemo
New Member
Posts: 31
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Post by chemo on Feb 20, 2024 10:07:02 GMT -5
High school sports, by definition, are extra-curricular. High school rooms should be welcoming first year wrestlers along with the state champs unless you want the sport to die. A room full of hyper-focused kids is more of a club mindset than a school mindset in my opinion. Our old school in PA promised a varsity letter (specifically for college application purposes) to any kid that completed the full year. The coach (who wrestled at Penn State under Cael) wanted kids in the room. You had first year wrestlers and state champion caliber wrestlers in the same room. One kid came out for the first time his senior year because he was hoping to go to a military college (ended up at VMI) and someone told him wrestling would help prepare him physically. He was a very good soccer player, but gave wrestling a try. He turned out to really enjoy it and ended up doing pretty well for a new guy. The coach commented that he wished he could have gotten him in the room earlier. And when that kid has kids of his own, there is a pretty good chance they will wrestle. There was another kid on that team who was awful. He knew it and everyone on the team knew it, but he was such a great kid the whole team loved him. He finally got a chance to wrestle a varsity match at a dual tournament against a team that was just starting their program. They had 3-4 wrestlers. The kid was actually able to win the match and you would have thought the team had just won states. They were that happy and supportive of the kid. It’s about more than state placements. The kids seem to understand that even if we adults sometimes forget it. Obviously we will have to agree to disagree here. Seems like you're of the mindset that more bodies in the room is what's most important, and I'm of the mindset that the quality of the room is most important. Both have their merits and faults. I think more bodies in the room will lead to better rooms in the long run.
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Post by penwright on Feb 20, 2024 10:32:10 GMT -5
50 kid teams care..... just means there are multiple kids competing for a starting spot vs kids being on a team of 10 who start no matter what. I'm not saying the 10 man team cant be great but there is a level of competition that simply doesn't exist in a smaller school. The flipside of your argument is you have 36 sets of parents whining because their wrestlers got beat in wrestle-offs and placed on the JV team. Also, the room is over crowded and practices have to be dumbed down to match the skills of the room. I'd personally take 10-20 hyper focused kids over a room full of kids trying to add an extra curricular to their college app, or wrestling because they couldn't make the basketball team. If 36 parents are complaining about their kid loosing the starting spot the coach is already not "worth his salt" long as it's an honest wrestle off the parent should never be involved. Also If the room is overcrowded with basketball players again the coach isn't "worth his salt" My comment is geared towards above average wrestling programs with 10 kids vs above average programs with 50 kids. There is obviously pros and cons to both. I was just pointing out the added level of competition having to stay sharp because someone is always trying to take the starting spot.
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Post by matman on Feb 20, 2024 13:21:58 GMT -5
I dont think 6 divisions hurts wresting in Va overall. On the other hand we do have to many divisions. Making it to state and placing should be a reward for being one of the better standout wrestlers in the state. Making it to state because you are on the team is absurd. When getting a medal at state is easier than some smaller mediocre regular season tournaments,something is wrong. A/AA should be combined at the very least
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Post by Keel on Feb 20, 2024 13:53:12 GMT -5
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Post by 3arankings on Feb 20, 2024 14:10:57 GMT -5
Someone else recommended three classes and it made me feel old.
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Post by hdf561 on Feb 20, 2024 14:12:45 GMT -5
So I never post on this forum, and rarely read it, but as a parent there are just a few things I feel like I have to comment on.
1. Christian Olanowski’s passion for wrestling is second to none, I love it, I don’t agree with all his points, but he wants to make wrestling in Virginia better and that’s not a bad thing, and he is a good coach with a good program which is why its one of the clubs my kids train at. 2. If your measure of Virginia Wrestling being successful is how many kids win Fargo, super 32, or go D1 I think you are missing the boat. There are so many kids at varying levels of college wrestling in and out of Virginia. D1 certainly isn’t for everybody even if you have the talent, if it was then no one would get there and quit or transfer to a lower level. 3. I don’t know the perfect amount of classes to have in Virginia but what I can tell you it still isn’t easy to win a title here. I’ll use my kids as an example. They both have been wrestling since they were young kids, they train at multiple clubs, they wrestle freestyle and Greco, off season they wrestle 4 days a week and lift 3 days a week, in season they practice 5-6 days a week (a double on Sunday), we have gone everywhere PA, Maryland, Ohio, Oklahoma, NC, Georgia Tyrant tournaments, OH WAY, NUWAY, NCWAY, my oldest went to Fargo, both have done super 32 multiple times, my oldest did Beast of the East, my youngest has won VAWA folk and freestyle states, etc. They just love to wrestle, my oldest just finished his senior season and with all that guess how many VHSL State Championships he has? ZERO! He won 2 regional titles, and placed 5th and 3rd. My youngest in his freshman season finished 3rd. I know the work and sacrifice my kids put into this so pardon my language when I say screw anyone who thinks kids have it easy here. 4. Coaches do recruit at the state tournaments, are we talking D1 absolutely not, but my oldest is going to wrestle D3 at Ferrum College and he wasn’t on their radar until they saw him wrestle at the state tournament 2 years ago. 5. Lastly and I’ll end with this has anyone asked what the kids want? Granted my kids don’t speak for everyone but I did ask them about the venue, and the atmosphere, etc. and there response was they could care less. They don’t care if it’s in a warehouse they just want to wrestle. They don’t need spotlights and people chanting their name (in fact they hated the spotlight at regional finals) they don’t care how many classes there are. Most of the “complaints” people have on here are adults complaining about things most of your kids couldn’t care less about, if we really want to make the sport better for them, we need to involve them in the conversations.
I think Virginia wrestling is some of the healthiest it’s been with participation, and people wanting to do the sport I’ll take that any day over some perceived level of superiority. In the immortal words of Forrest Gump “that’s all I have to say about that” and “I’m pretty tired think I’ll go home now”
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Post by milestone on Feb 20, 2024 15:09:41 GMT -5
Shew. My first state tournament in a few years at Salem this past weekend. The drama was rampant....mostly in the stands amongst parents. The yellow shirts seemed way more chill than what I remember! Anyways, here are some of my thoughts that ultimately don't matter.
I don't agree with everything Olanowski is saying but I respect his passion. VHSL needs to reconsider their 7 classification system for many reasons.....developing D1 wrestlers shouldn't be the main sticking point. There are lots of colleges in the state and in nearby states that aren't D1 programs. I do think reducing the number of divisions in VA wrestling will increase the number of competitive matches and will ultimately help coaches better assess their prospects.
My thoughts of needing to go back to 3 or 4 divisions is super selfish. I want to watch a good product over the course of 2 days! I'm paying VHSL all this cash and I would like to see good wrestling. There were flashes and the studs(amongst the divisions) definitely stood out, but come on! As a fan, I wanna see some of these better kids battling it out together. I miss the drama of a Friday night quarterfinal match and knowing I get to see 2 more good ones on Saturday.
When the VAC(some might have to google) was rolling.....so was H.S. wrestling in our state. We weren't a powerhouse state BUT we were getting better and better.
I disagree with Rollin about club wrestling. Let's be real. Grundy is a VERY privileged program. They have the $$ to foot the bill for wrestlers in their area and surrounding areas. They have the $$ to pay for a coach like Travis Fiser. They have the $$ to travel to national events and put their better kids on the map. They have the $$ to help support kids that move into the area to compete for their team. I'm not hating on Grundy at all but their program is very well funded and that puts them at a significant advantage regardless the size of their school. I don't think there is any denying that.
Club wrestling, and parents that buy into it(literally), give kids an opportunity to have quality coaching and a better training environment. It's a collective effort amongst parents to help compensate for what their child might be missing at their home school. Knocking club wrestling b/c it costs $$ while being from a place of privilege, like Grundy, is a bit off to me. Club wrestling has helped even the playing field for teams that don't have a quality coaching staff, like Grundy.
Just my opinion tho. I did learn that I can pay 11.95(or something like that) and watch matches from home next year vs all the cash I spent in Salem. Until the collective product gets better, I'll go probably go that route.
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Post by rollin on Feb 20, 2024 18:11:16 GMT -5
Shew. My first state tournament in a few years at Salem this past weekend. The drama was rampant....mostly in the stands amongst parents. The yellow shirts seemed way more chill than what I remember! Anyways, here are some of my thoughts that ultimately don't matter. I don't agree with everything Olanowski is saying but I respect his passion. VHSL needs to reconsider their 7 classification system for many reasons.....developing D1 wrestlers shouldn't be the main sticking point. There are lots of colleges in the state and in nearby states that aren't D1 programs. I do think reducing the number of divisions in VA wrestling will increase the number of competitive matches and will ultimately help coaches better assess their prospects. My thoughts of needing to go back to 3 or 4 divisions is super selfish. I want to watch a good product over the course of 2 days! I'm paying VHSL all this cash and I would like to see good wrestling. There were flashes and the studs(amongst the divisions) definitely stood out, but come on! As a fan, I wanna see some of these better kids battling it out together. I miss the drama of a Friday night quarterfinal match and knowing I get to see 2 more good ones on Saturday. When the VAC(some might have to google) was rolling.....so was H.S. wrestling in our state. We weren't a powerhouse state BUT we were getting better and better. I disagree with Rollin about club wrestling. Let's be real. Grundy is a VERY privileged program. They have the $$ to foot the bill for wrestlers in their area and surrounding areas. They have the $$ to pay for a coach like Travis Fiser. They have the $$ to travel to national events and put their better kids on the map. They have the $$ to help support kids that move into the area to compete for their team. I'm not hating on Grundy at all but their program is very well funded and that puts them at a significant advantage regardless the size of their school. I don't think there is any denying that. Club wrestling, and parents that buy into it(literally), give kids an opportunity to have quality coaching and a better training environment. It's a collective effort amongst parents to help compensate for what their child might be missing at their home school. Knocking club wrestling b/c it costs $$ while being from a place of privilege, like Grundy, is a bit off to me. Club wrestling has helped even the playing field for teams that don't have a quality coaching staff, like Grundy. Just my opinion tho. I did learn that I can pay 11.95(or something like that) and watch matches from home next year vs all the cash I spent in Salem. Until the collective product gets better, I'll go probably go that route. I agree with most of what you are saying. The VAC was a great high level place to develop wrestlers. I think the change to multiple youth state tournaments has gave more options and the depth isn’t there anymore. Also, VAC used to be 6-8. That made a really tough tournament. I understand Grundy has funded their wrestling program. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I’m not saying the club coaches are money hungry and taking advantage of the parents desire for their kids to succeed. I’m saying when the kid quits training with his team, the team suffers. Then, teams are weaker because they have lost their inspiration, leader and proof the system will work. In the past, I know I’m old, former wrestlers come back and give back to their programs. I know in Grundy, they have 6 former wrestlers in the room who volunteer. Coach Fiser does get paid, but he has other jobs too. However, many Coaches around the state are being compensated. Now on the pricing kids out end. Using Grundy as the example, they have 2 self sufficient leagues that is free to all competitors. Local insurance and concessions supplies is the only costs. Then the gate and concessions covers everything. Last year all the kids got free singlets from the proceeds. Grundy has a Camp that is free to everyone, Great Training Opportunity! What I’m saying is if everyone quit trying to make an extra couple of bucks on youth wrestling, a lot more people would do it. Free is affordable. I was at NHSCA Nationals last year and overheard two dad’s complaining about how their kids were 1-2 and 0-2. The comment that stick with me was I have $25,000 in him this year and he went 0-2. Where do we draw the line? How much is too much?
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Post by milestone on Feb 20, 2024 20:00:10 GMT -5
Rollin, yes! Put "national" in front of a youth/middle school event and all the hosts see is $$$$.
I see a lot of common ground here, rollin. 25k and costs traveling to nhsca just to get 2 matches - yeah, that's tough. Too much pressure on the kids and too much expectation from the parents. I do believe there is a balance...and I suppose it's up to each parent to decide where that line is drawn. I think a quality club, with good instruction, hard drilling, and quality live goes is money BEST spent vs traveling to PA or Ohio just to go 0-2. Don't get me wrong, seeking tough competition is needed.....when the wrestler is ready.
Grundy has a lot of great dudes giving back to what helped shaped them as men. The loyalty they have to their program trumps A LOT of other "programs" due to the influence that club had on them. Some of those kids never would have seen the ocean if it wasn't for Grundy wrestling paying the way for them. That means something to those kids. It's what makes that program special and different.
Often times the quality coach gets passed up for the political guy. Leaves kids in a tough spot. I personally think the ownership should be on the club coach to remind the high school kid that club practice is SECONDARY to high school practice when in season. Let's be real......some of these high school coaches are as part time as their wrestlers.
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Post by earlsmith on Feb 21, 2024 10:18:46 GMT -5
This is usually the time of year when the # of classes topic comes up and usually I don’t participate, but I was surprised at the support there is here for it. Also, I’m not trying to downplay any accomplishments of the wrestlers that competed last weekend. They got it done on the mat and within the framework of a system they had nothing to do with. So congratulations or I hope you get what you want next time!
Simply put, six classes (seven counting privates) is terrible and needs to go. It needed to go a long time ago. It’s not good for the state and wrestling. Maybe it works well with other sports.
I’ve tried to put my thoughts into three different categories.
Motivation
The first point I’ll make is the state championship as a motivational tool for young wrestlers. I’m sure as you’ve taken your older elementary school and middle school wrestlers out of state to camps, clinics, privates with clinicians from Pennsylvania and New Jersey they are training them with the intent of winning a state championship. That’s generally a goal for a lot of wrestlers that age.
In the past…the 3 class era. You may have a freshman who was very promising (not a Fargo champion or high AA-type, but the next tier down). They may finish fifth in the state as a freshman and that carrot in front of their face is a state title. They go to their club, camps, Fargo, Cadet/Junior Duals, whatever it takes to get that state title. Well, as a sophomore they may get second or third. That hunger is built and they do those same offseason activities ready to finally get that title - maybe more. Maybe it happens as a junior and senior, maybe it doesn’t, but they have that relentless pursuit of that goal of being a champion.
Now, with talent spread out amongst six public school classes, getting to the podium is not quite as gruesome of a task. Those same young studs may win state titles as freshmen and sophomores. Human nature, especially for 15/16 year olds, is that complacency sets in as they hit those hallowed benchmarks they’ve been aiming for for years. I’m sure everyone who is reading this is thinking, “Not my kid, they’re different.” There are those select few that are self-motivated and will train even harder after winning a title. But those are the rare birds - the exceptions to the rule.
More often than not, that’s when the kid wants to take the summer off and doesn’t do those grueling activities like Fargo and the Duals. As a result, VA is missing key kids that could win matches at those events. Fast forward a year or two down the road, those kids as juniors and seniors are losing to younger, hungrier kids (I know these kids in the last couple classes have been really talented; so more FR/SO are winning. Think of this idea playing out over the last decade…not just this year or last).
This mindset and complacency can apply to not only state champions, but finalists and medalists. Again, some kids use coming up short as a motivator, some are happy to get on the podium and feel they’ll just be better by being a senior next year.
Recruiting
Another point I’ve seen even detractors of the 6 Class system make is that college coaches weren’t beating down the doors of VA kids a decade ago, either. That’s true, but six classes makes it much worse.
I had a conversation with a friend who is a head coach at a DI school that’s about average or a tick below, right now .Frankly, VA kids could start and be an upgrade at a handful of weights on his team.
He said “I don’t know what these classes mean. Is 5A tougher than 3A? They’re bigger right? How good is a 4A finalist. I’ve got so many kids to sort through, it’s easier to just look at a Pennsylvania state qualifier, I know what that means.”
You might question his methods and maybe call it lazy….I wouldn’t totally disagree. But the fact remains, in the 3 class system, you generally knew how good a AA finalist was. Or a AAA champion. Or a AAA fourth-place guy. Obviously, some weights could be more loaded than others, but in a general sense.
What I’m getting at is that there’s a DI program that could add five or six VA kids and it would be an upgrade; however, the coach does want to take the time to do the research to scout our kids. It’s easier to get a kid from PA or NJ.
I also met with a DI coach over the summer who was running a session at a local club. He obviously had three or four kids he was coming to meet, but he was shocked by the quality of the other kids in the club, as well.
College coaches have just kind of crossed the entire state off their recruiting list, unless they’ve placed at Fargo or Ironman or Super 32. And a big part of that is the perception that the state is watered down and a mess.
I’m not saying that we could be sending five kids a year to Iowa or Penn State, but there are plenty of viable college options out there for our wrestlers, but aren’t able to take advantage of them because of the system they’ve been given.
Also, with the structure of college recruiting at the DI/DII levels, they have their signing days in early/mid November. Most schools allocate for the bulk of their available recruiting dollars to be accounted for at that point. So, if a VA kid that’s been overlooked goes to the Beast in mid-December and has a great tournament and gets third, there may only be lukewarm interest from coaches. They may not have much money to spend for that crop of HS seniors. If, like I said before, that kid was a AAA state runner-up and coaches knew what that meant, they could be on him earlier and he’d have more options. Instead, now he may go somewhere for limited scholly money with only one potential suitor.
Growing the Sport
So the corporate line from VHSL is generally that with more classes you have more champions and placewinners and state qualifiers. With that you have more kids that have had a positive takeaway from the sport and are more likely to be involved with it going forward. From, reading some of the posts above, I think that many others feel this way too.
To that I’d say PROVE IT! We’ve had this 6 class structure since 2014. HS seniors from that season are almost 30. Have we noticed an uptick in coaches, referees, fans, or volunteers in the last decade? I could be wrong, but I imagine there isn’t much difference. Wrestling, especially in VA, still tends to be in desperate need of all of those things.
Please bare with me as I’m gonna use an example outside of the wrestling world…but trust me.
Have you ever received free tickets to a sporting event or show or something? I have and there have been times where I’ve had a long day at work, I don’t want to brave traffic on 95, or stuff comes up. It’s easy to disregard free tickets.
Now, I’ve also spent way too much of my own money on tickets. In that instance, I might get my 3 kids out of school early, leave from work, give extra time for traffic and get there early, because damn it….I spent $100+ a ticket…I’m getting my money’s worth.
It’s easy to turn away and disregard something you put minimal effort into. But you tend to stick with it when you have a sizable investment.
Relating this to wrestling, during this 6 Class-era I’ve seen weight classes where all a kid had to do was make weight at the regional/sub-regional and they go to states. A coach who wants to bring a full lineup to states can drag some football lineman out of the weight room and he’s a state qualifier. Or maybe the random kid in the school that can make 106. Are those kids fans for life because they got to wrestle in the postseason? Do they take away values they learned in wrestling for the rest of their lives? I doubt it. It was just a thing they did.
Looking at your power states….it’s an accomplishment to say you’re a NJ/PA/IA/CA state qualifier. The kids that made it had to run the gauntlet ,winning a bunch of matches, against good competition, at multiple qualifying events, just to get to the state tournament.
Those states don’t have problems with participation numbers because “it’s too hard to win.”
The short term gratification of winning is good and I understand it. We want the best for our kids. But what matters more is shooting for a really tough goal. For some, that goal is making the state tournament. Others it’s winning a title. Others it may be higher. And most don’t achieve those goals. And that’s ok.
In closing, we need a change. I have gone on way too long and could probably write for another hour about the topic. A tip of the hat to anyone who made it this far!
I’m not advocating for a single-class system like CA or NJ. That’s fun for wrestling nerds like me, but probably not practical.
Ideally, I like a two-class system. Big schools and little schools.
But, at this point, I’d be ok with the old three class system. Let’s bring it back!
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Post by maroondude on Feb 21, 2024 12:01:52 GMT -5
System in place is fine. If a college coach can't do their job evaluating talent that is on them. If a kid gets the experience of going to a big meet 3 hours away and goes 2 and BBQ what does it really hurt? Is it any worse than football 1's curb stomping their 1st round playoff opponent...No, its just a kid getting the opportunity. If you are elite- They will find you. If you win a state championship in a 8 division state and you are dog water, you ain't getting part of the 9.9 schollys available.
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luffy
New Member
Posts: 46
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Post by luffy on Feb 21, 2024 13:18:50 GMT -5
The real issue is that the VHSL doesn’t work with coaches to get them to the tournament. They are not given credentials and are made to buy their own ticket.
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Post by jacktrades on Feb 21, 2024 13:29:09 GMT -5
The real issue is that the VHSL doesn’t work with coaches to get them to the tournament. They are not given credentials and are made to buy their own ticket. False
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Post by maroondude on Feb 21, 2024 13:34:38 GMT -5
The real issue is that the VHSL doesn’t work with coaches to get them to the tournament. They are not given credentials and are made to buy their own ticket. False VHSL coaches are issued passes and can get in to EVERY VHSL event for free. Daddy coaches don't.
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luffy
New Member
Posts: 46
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Post by luffy on Feb 21, 2024 13:34:57 GMT -5
The real issue is that the VHSL doesn’t work with coaches to get them to the tournament. They are not given credentials and are made to buy their own ticket. False This. 100% is not false and anyone saying different is lying.
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