tcob1
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Posts: 2
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Post by tcob1 on Feb 18, 2024 22:13:27 GMT -5
Please read in entirety. I am not going to comment on whether or not the VHSL should have fewer divisions, but I will note that the same logic could apply to weight classes at some level. What’s the difference in 150 and 144 anyways… Just a thought, not suggesting that 106 should wrestle against 285... or am I… I think some are misinterpreting the purpose of classes. These are based on the size of student body, since a school with 300 students is at a disadvantage to a school with 3000 students. That has nothing to do with individual wrestlers place in the state, but with a TEAM’s rank in the state. The best coach in the world isn’t gonna win state with 6 guys trying out.
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Post by cavfan on Feb 18, 2024 22:36:23 GMT -5
I want to address this from another angle. As someone who grew up wrestling in Iowa, I can say the smaller venues offer a much better view of the action at State. Wells Fargo arena has a 17000 seat capacity, it's a 32 man bracket and a 4 day tournament. If you have never been, Google images of the Iowa New Jersey and Pennsylvania high school state championships. I hear alot of complaining about the venues particularly Salem. Be careful what you wish for. If you support 3 classes,what venue do you recommend?
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Post by vawrestler02 on Feb 18, 2024 22:56:13 GMT -5
I want to address this from another angle. As someone who grew up wrestling in Iowa, I can say the smaller venues offer a much better view of the action at State. Wells Fargo arena has a 17000 seat capacity, it's a 32 man bracket and a 4 day tournament. If you have never been, Google images of the Iowa New Jersey and Pennsylvania high school state championships. I hear alot of complaining about the venues particularly Salem. Be careful what you wish for. If you support 3 classes,what venue do you recommend? There are plenty of colleges with gymnasiums and field houses, not to mention civic arenas etc. that could be used. As far as that goes, you could potentially rotate venues. The logistics could be worked out, but the politics is where this argument will die. If the logic of those who support the 6 class system was sound, then the top 6 all class rankings should be each of the State Champs ranked against each other. Several state champs aren't even on the list!! That's because (back to my original post) they have consistently lost to lower ranked kids from other classes throughout the season.
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Post by cavfan on Feb 19, 2024 0:47:28 GMT -5
I want to address this from another angle. As someone who grew up wrestling in Iowa, I can say the smaller venues offer a much better view of the action at State. Wells Fargo arena has a 17000 seat capacity, it's a 32 man bracket and a 4 day tournament. If you have never been, Google images of the Iowa New Jersey and Pennsylvania high school state championships. I hear alot of complaining about the venues particularly Salem. Be careful what you wish for. If you support 3 classes,what venue do you recommend? There are plenty of colleges with gymnasiums and field houses, not to mention civic arenas etc. that could be used. As far as that goes, you could potentially rotate venues. The logistics could be worked out, but the politics is where this argument will die. If the logic of those who support the 6 class system was sound, then the top 6 all class rankings should be each of the State Champs ranked against each other. Several state champs aren't even on the list!! That's because (back to my original post) they have consistently lost to lower ranked kids from other classes throughout the season. I agree with you, there are plenty of venues. My post was poorly written. I just wanted to ask those who support 3 classes of they are ok with watching from the nosebleeds. I know alot of wrestlers from smaller schools who wish they had a tougher regular season to better prepare them for State. Probably why some of those state champs don't make the all class rankings. Is the 6 class system holding them back from reaching their full potential in high school? Probably. On the other hand, alot of high school athletes will never compete in college but the 6 class system creates a more balanced playing field for them to make lasting memories. Al Bundy never played college football but he once scored 4 touchdowns in a single game.
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chemo
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Posts: 31
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Post by chemo on Feb 19, 2024 7:25:59 GMT -5
I want to address this from another angle. As someone who grew up wrestling in Iowa, I can say the smaller venues offer a much better view of the action at State. Wells Fargo arena has a 17000 seat capacity, it's a 32 man bracket and a 4 day tournament. If you have never been, Google images of the Iowa New Jersey and Pennsylvania high school state championships. I hear alot of complaining about the venues particularly Salem. Be careful what you wish for. If you support 3 classes,what venue do you recommend? There are plenty of colleges with gymnasiums and field houses, not to mention civic arenas etc. that could be used. As far as that goes, you could potentially rotate venues. The logistics could be worked out, but the politics is where this argument will die. If the logic of those who support the 6 class system was sound, then the top 6 all class rankings should be each of the State Champs ranked against each other. Several state champs aren't even on the list!! That's because (back to my original post) they have consistently lost to lower ranked kids from other classes throughout the season. As someone who supports the six class system (although I didn’t when we first moved to Virginia), that is not my logic at all. By that logic, the D2 National champ and D3 National champ would be the 2nd and 3rd ranked wrestlers in college. I’ll freely admit that any final rankings (which are just for fun and not an exact science, so no need to stress about them anyway) won’t usually be just champions. That is because there are advantages and disadvantages at each classification. And that’s ok. Nobody is harmed by state champs not being on that list. Don’t worry about things that don’t matter and are outside our control. If a kid’s ultimate goal is to wrestle in college, they will find the right spot. The state champ who “isn’t any good” isn’t going to steal a spot from the kid who “consistently” beats him. Plus, when they are talking to college coaches, they can say they consistently beat a state champ.
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Post by lowsingle on Feb 19, 2024 7:32:40 GMT -5
As someone who is connected to various college coaches throughout the country, they don't care if a kid is a 1A champ or a 6A qualifier. If they fit the team or can produce for the team, they will get recruited. A lot of recruitment happens in off-season tournaments anyways. I used to care about the divisions, but now I just care about the things I can control. Am I doing the best I can for my wrestler's needs? Am I pushing them to be the best versions of themselves? If they want to wrestle in college, am I being realistic with them? Not everyone is a D1 athlete. Even so, very few D1 athletes make a living off of wrestling. Finding the right fit for the athlete's future is so much more important than the number attached to the division. Recruiting has changed. There used to be a few national tournaments each year, now there are too many to count each week. There used to be a lot more D1 programs to fill. Now there are too few D1 programs to address the high school wrestling population. Where I grew up, things were different, but I was in a big wrestling state. It didn't matter what division Logan Steiber was from in Ohio (D-3 the smallest) he still became a 4x NCAA champ. Do you think the Buckeyes wouldn't recruit him because he was from a small school? Recruiting is less about the coach and more about the athlete. Coaches will find the athletes no matter where they come from. Some of which never fully mature until they get out of high school anyways. If you want to wrestle in college, you can. There is a program out there for you. It may be a Big10 program, it may be a club team. There are plenty of opportunities to continue your career, but most importantly, make sure you are setting up tmyour life's career. Being a high school wrestling coach does not pay the bills. I promise. But it sure is fun, no matter how many divisions there are. Agree with a lot of this. As someone who wrestled in the 3 division days, I’d love to see it come back. Is it watered down? Absolutely. Without seeing any numbers, I’d be willing to say that participation is about the same as it used to be, if not higher. I’d also be willing to bet that we have just as many D1 guys going to college as we did back in the 3 division days. You look at 3a and you had the Staunton River kids, you look at 2a and you had Potter, Flowers, and 1a has Bush and a few others who can potentially go d1. That’s just our 1-3a in Salem and I know there’s more in 4-6a. I’ve talked with Tony Robie over the years and he once told me that even when we had the 3 divisions, it was not heavily recruited as you’d think. They already knew the guys they wanted by recruiting from the National tournaments. He said that’s where you get your name out there to all colleges, not just d1. So I don’t think we have a skill problem in Virginia, because a lot of kids are now wrestling in college. Whether that’s d1 or d3. With the addition of all the d2/d3 schools adding wrestling, we have so many kids going to college now We just have to keep pushing these kids for all the national tournaments if we want to keep Virginia relevant.
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chemo
New Member
Posts: 31
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Post by chemo on Feb 19, 2024 7:38:30 GMT -5
There are plenty of colleges with gymnasiums and field houses, not to mention civic arenas etc. that could be used. As far as that goes, you could potentially rotate venues. The logistics could be worked out, but the politics is where this argument will die. If the logic of those who support the 6 class system was sound, then the top 6 all class rankings should be each of the State Champs ranked against each other. Several state champs aren't even on the list!! That's because (back to my original post) they have consistently lost to lower ranked kids from other classes throughout the season. I agree with you, there are plenty of venues. My post was poorly written. I just wanted to ask those who support 3 classes of they are ok with watching from the nosebleeds. I know alot of wrestlers from smaller schools who wish they had a tougher regular season to better prepare them for State. Probably why some of those state champs don't make the all class rankings. Is the 6 class system holding them back from reaching their full potential in high school? Probably. On the other hand, alot of high school athletes will never compete in college but the 6 class system creates a more balanced playing field for them to make lasting memories. Al Bundy never played college football but he once scored 4 touchdowns in a single game. How does the six class system keep a wrestler from reaching their full potential? Doesn’t it really only come into play for the postseason? Our son wrestles all classes and VISAA during the season. Between the season and one off-season tournament in Virginia, he has wrestled at least one finalist from all seven classes at his weight We’re still relatively new to Virginia, so I might be missing something. I frequently hear that argument made, but can’t figure out the logic behind it and would like to learn.
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Post by colanowski on Feb 19, 2024 8:00:24 GMT -5
Hold my beer. I'm on it
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Post by trophies4all on Feb 19, 2024 8:05:36 GMT -5
I agree with most points made. Kinda feel like you shouldn't be in state if you don't win a couple matches at regions thou...seems kinda pointless to send a wrestler to a state tournament who just had to make weight. If VHSL is truly about the money, why does 1-2A only send top3? That's the dumbest decision ever. Makes absolutely zero sense any way you spin it.
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Post by colanowski on Feb 19, 2024 8:19:31 GMT -5
I'm going to say it... Anyone who is FOR the 6 classes is from Grundy and is trophy hunting and wants to just pump up their meaningless record of "we have the most state titles in the state". 6 Classes is TERRIBLE. Ask any college coach In VA. They don't come to states to recruit. They come bc its an obligation and they need to be there. I'm gunna fix this thing. Whether you like it or not
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chemo
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Posts: 31
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Post by chemo on Feb 19, 2024 9:03:27 GMT -5
I'm going to say it... Anyone who is FOR the 6 classes is from Grundy and is trophy hunting and wants to just pump up their meaningless record of "we have the most state titles in the state". 6 Classes is TERRIBLE. Ask any college coach In VA. They don't come to states to recruit. They come bc its an obligation and they need to be there. I'm gunna fix this thing. Whether you like it or not Not from Grundy. Just want Virginia wrestling to grow and get better. Consolidating classes will not result in more D1 wrestlers. Better wrestling will result in more D1 wrestlers. Virginia is not Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey, etc. Virginia needs more wrestlers, better coaching, and more commitment from schools. None of which gets changed by fewer classes. I would submit to you that fewer classes will result in the opposite. Fleming High School is a perfect example. If I recall correctly, they had one state qualifier last year. Coaches started taking them to Predator on Sundays (3 hour drive each way) to get some better coaching and they qualified nine for states this year. Their team got better and it had nothing to do with classes. I believe you are trying to come up with a solution for the wrong problem.
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Post by penwright on Feb 19, 2024 9:27:33 GMT -5
I'm going to say it... Anyone who is FOR the 6 classes is from Grundy and is trophy hunting and wants to just pump up their meaningless record of "we have the most state titles in the state". 6 Classes is TERRIBLE. Ask any college coach In VA. They don't come to states to recruit. They come bc its an obligation and they need to be there. I'm gunna fix this thing. Whether you like it or not Not from Grundy. Just want Virginia wrestling to grow and get better. Consolidating classes will not result in more D1 wrestlers. Better wrestling will result in more D1 wrestlers. Virginia is not Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey, etc. Virginia needs more wrestlers, better coaching, and more commitment from schools. None of which gets changed by fewer classes. I would submit to you that fewer classes will result in the opposite. Fleming High School is a perfect example. If I recall correctly, they had one state qualifier last year. Coaches started taking them to Predator on Sundays (3 hour drive each way) to get some better coaching and they qualified nine for states this year. Their team got better and it had nothing to do with classes. I believe you are trying to come up with a solution for the wrong problem. I agree with Chemo! Im not from grundy either. If the wrestler truly wants to get better they will chase it. Combining will only discourage kids from small schools who already struggle to fill a roster. Let them find some successful at their level. The ones that truly want to be on an elite level know what it takes. It's very similar to how Bow hunters hate dog hunters but many dog hunters are bow hunters. Any way you shake it they are all hunters and need to band together as such simply by promoting hunting in general. Do you want to grow the sport of wrestling or do you want to shine a light on a select few elite athletes? Imo if you want to claim an all class title make super states a vhsl event? Taking the success away from the small schools won't fix anything imo
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Post by wagner911 on Feb 19, 2024 9:34:14 GMT -5
I'm going to say it... Anyone who is FOR the 6 classes is from Grundy and is trophy hunting and wants to just pump up their meaningless record of "we have the most state titles in the state". 6 Classes is TERRIBLE. Ask any college coach In VA. They don't come to states to recruit. They come bc its an obligation and they need to be there. I'm gunna fix this thing. Whether you like it or not Thank god someone is. You are right! The problem is the same problem plaguing the country. Trophy parenting and progressive beliefs. We have wrestled across the country. I’ve coached in different states, this is a disaster. If you need help, I will help in any way possible.
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Post by penwright on Feb 19, 2024 9:50:13 GMT -5
I'm going to say it... Anyone who is FOR the 6 classes is from Grundy and is trophy hunting and wants to just pump up their meaningless record of "we have the most state titles in the state". 6 Classes is TERRIBLE. Ask any college coach In VA. They don't come to states to recruit. They come bc its an obligation and they need to be there. I'm gunna fix this thing. Whether you like it or not Thank god someone is. You are right! The problem is the same problem plaguing the country. Trophy parenting and progressive beliefs. We have wrestled across the country. I’ve coached in different states, this is a disaster. If you need help, I will help in any way possible. If you don't have experience trying to recruit kids off a basketball court from a school of only 300 kids your opinion is biased. Personally I come from a school where every sport has 1 or 2 kids trying to compete for the starting spot. That alone breeds competition that smaller schools don't have or even understand. I moved my kids from the city to grow up in a smaller school. That being said there simply isn't enough kids to be scared of loosing a starting spot let alone fill a roster. Watching the sports here has really changed my opinion. There is not full A teams and B teams walking the hallways to compete with. These smaller schools are making due with what they have coach and student wise. Some just take it more serious than others. There is a reason why 6A stands out in the "All Class" rankings. Again if you don't think population and money plays a roll in it you are simply being biased in my opinion.
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chemo
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Posts: 31
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Post by chemo on Feb 19, 2024 10:20:37 GMT -5
I'm going to say it... Anyone who is FOR the 6 classes is from Grundy and is trophy hunting and wants to just pump up their meaningless record of "we have the most state titles in the state". 6 Classes is TERRIBLE. Ask any college coach In VA. They don't come to states to recruit. They come bc its an obligation and they need to be there. I'm gunna fix this thing. Whether you like it or not Thank god someone is. You are right! The problem is the same problem plaguing the country. Trophy parenting and progressive beliefs. We have wrestled across the country. I’ve coached in different states, this is a disaster. If you need help, I will help in any way possible. This isn’t directed at you, but trophy parenting is coming on this forum and complaining about your kid’s all class ranking, not the parents who want to grow the sport. The top kids are already wrestling each other. I don’t see the same calls for consolidating classes in other sports because they seem to recognize the advantages of different size schools. The “disaster” of Virginia wrestling will not be fixed if you go to three classes or even one class. College coaches understand Virginia wrestling just like they understand every other state.
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